haitch
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Post by haitch on Oct 16, 2023 10:12:42 GMT 10
Hello all. Some of you may be aware that we had a little incident,(which could have been much worse) on day one, of the Ural Australia Adventure ride.
Now this ride was well planned and executed and great fun. Furthermore, it was attended by some very keen ladies and gentlemen of varying experience and skill levels.
Now to the nitty gritty. Those who know us, would say I am a thinker and possibly an over thinker. When I am involved in an incident, my natural instinct is to find a root cause, primarily to prevent a reoccurrence.
I believe we were very lucky to escape this one.
On returning home, I began looking at alignment again. To see what may have changed. The usual process was followed, starting with levelling the rig for and aft as well as across. This was achieved with an error of no more than 0.1 degrees.
Tyre pressures were checked and inflated. Shockers were at the settings provided by HCS.
Lean out unloaded and measured at the rear was 0.9 degrees. A beam placed between front and rear wheels kept them in line. Lean out at the front was 0.6 degrees
Loading the rider on board changed the lean out at the rear to 0.5 degrees and the front 0.8 degrees
Putting the passenger in the chair caused the lean out to normalize by 0.6 degrees.
So, we are between 0 and 1 degree of lean out. The Spec is (1-2 degrees) Lean Out.
Toe In was measured directly at the sidecar wheel and measured 6mm, in relation to a straight edge on the rear wheel. Spec is (3-8mm)
So far So Good. A very short video is presented here to give an idea of the track condition. Please note the camber toward the cliff face and the wheel tracks worn into the track surface.
We had been on this track for some time and my right arm was suffering fatigue pushing the right bar away from the cliff face toward the crown in the track surface.
According to witnesses, the SC hit a rock (unseen by me) it was just big enough to make it under the sidecar step and was wedge shaped. Pushing the SC airborn to what felt like 45 degrees.
I recall, correcting to bring the wheel down. But, guessing the right handle bar clipped heavy bush causing a pirouette to the right.
Anyway, My big Question: is the amount of force required on the Right and Left handlebar, always that extreme under those circumstances???
If it is, then all the other riders have my utmost respect for their skill, strength and endurance.
In the end, Ruby (the Ural) only suffered a few scratches. We were very shaken, but otherwise unhurt (feeling beaten up the next couple of days)
We would be very grateful for thoughts on the matter. What did we miss? Perhaps speed? I cannot recall if we were in 1st or 2nd gear.
We are also very grateful for the assistance provided by those who came to our aid. (Thanks Hahn for the video). We are in your debt.
Cheers H n M
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haitch
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Post by haitch on Oct 16, 2023 10:34:48 GMT 10
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Post by Uralee on Oct 16, 2023 10:45:25 GMT 10
H, looking at the track pic and reading your description in total I would say everything was normal.
My target line on that track would have ‘Princess’ on the intercom saying “ white post very close”. 😇
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haitch
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Post by haitch on Oct 16, 2023 11:02:25 GMT 10
H, looking at the track pic and reading your description in total I would say everything was normal. My target line on that track would have ‘Princess’ on the intercom saying “ white post very close”. 😇 My princess had several things to say over our intercom. The track also had sections that had collapsed over the edge. That track felt like a sustained 45 degree camber. Probably 8 to 12 degrees in reality. But, jeezus the wheel ruts were relentless. We still rode out and finished the day. Learnings then are, exercise extreme caution and slow down. Thank for your thoughts. I did adjust handlebars for more leverage. Yet to be tested. Cheers |
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Post by miker on Oct 17, 2023 16:22:17 GMT 10
G'day Haitch... I was on the ride too, and saw the aftermath of your temporary failure to proceed  It certainly looked a little scary. I had some slightly scary moments myself, but these came down to two things. 1) Lack of talent, and 2) I've just replaced the dry, very lumpy steering head bearings...
When I did my training with Jon at the end of 2021. The last thing we did, after learning how to fly the chair, was to go back along the track to his house. It was a flat track, but the right hand wheel rut was below the left hand rut. Jon was in the sidecar, and I'd had sum total of about 90 minutes of riding a sidecar, ever. This was my first day. He said, "just follow that right hand rut" so I did, and when the right hand side dipped into the rut, my instinct immediately said "turn right". Jon said, "that happens to almost everyone at some point in their early days of sidecar riding, usually more than once." He was right, as it's happened to me a few times since.
Six months later, when I finally picked up my 2022 GU, I had to ride it back from Goulburn. Within 10 minutes of leaving the workshop where I picked it up, I was on a long off camber right hander heading for the opposite side of the road. Because I was so afraid of the chair lifting and tipping me out I didn't turn left as much as I needed to, but throttled off and let the bike fade right. It was a brand new bike and I hadn't ridden a sidecar since my 2 hours training and I had no weight in the side car either. It was lucky I was wearing my brown pants. My mate following in the car was ready to dial 000. However, just before I hit the gravel on the wrong side of the road, I consciously recalled Jon's sage advice on left handers, and rolled gently in to the throttle and pushed as much as I dare on the right grip, finally getting it back on the correct side of the road. After that, I was much, much more ginger in the left handers, but also spent a lot of time on the way home figuring out how much lift would occur and whether it kept lifting or eventually went back down again. Inevitably it always came back down, and my urge to turn right before it flipped has since dissipated. That being said, I will always go into a corner in either direction with a great deal of trepidation, and often come out wondering what all the fuss was about.
It's often said, by those more experienced than me, that the measurements for lean out and toe in are simply a starting point. If my original set up is any indication from the factory, Ivan's set up isn't always right for the intended owner. Mat in Uralla checked mine when I first took it up there when it was new. It pulled very hard to the left under acceleration, yet it was (just) in spec when he did his measurement. On some of the long right hand hills on the New England Hwy, it was all I could do to keep it from running off the road. He suggested on my way back to Sydney, to adjust the lean out by one turn on both struts and see what it was like. After two more turns (total of three in the end) I'd got it pretty right, for me anyway. Since then, I've never actually measured toe in or lean out. I just went by feel, and so far it's been great. That being said, I've just fitted Ikon shocks, and due to a back operation, can't ride for another month (I wish I'd bought them before the 4500km to TAS and the UAR  ). So whether the new shocks will require a bit of fettling on the alignment I don't know. The tyres are wearing quite squarely, not wearing on one side or the other. So it should be close. 17,000 km and I'm just on to the fourth back tyre, second front tyre, original sidecar tyre.
Your question about pressure on the bars is correct, there is always a fair bit of pressure required on the bars in wheel ruts, and it's pretty unavoidable. Some people move their hands to the very edge of the bar, even off the end to get a bit more leverage. Some adjust them higher, like Glenn as he's pretty tall. If you didn't have a windscreen on the sidecar, you could put wider bars on. I know when I've been on those 200km days in the kind of country we were in
Depending on who you talk to about tracking and alignment everyone has their own preference. In my opinion, it will all depend on what you're doing. I'm solo with very little weight in the sidecar most of the time. So I've set it up to be quite neutral on the steering on a normal 80kph road. When I load up with a passenger, it will pull somewhat left, but not too badly. If I'm on a long trip, one turn out on the struts is easy enough to do on the side of the road.
I'm sure you've already seen all of David's Youtube videos on set up... but in the alignment video intro he talks about two things. 1) You'll never get a perfect chassis set up for all riding conditions and loads. 2) The Ural is made by people not robots, so there's always a slight variance in the build and the way they're finished, hence a difference in the alignments when they come from the factory.
From your measurements, it appears your toe in is within spec, but your lean out isn't quite enough. Providing your measurements are taken from the correct positions. On the rear rotor for the lean out and behind the side car wheel to between the hub and rim through to your straight bar on the rear wheel for the back measurement, and under the front wheel axle squarely across to the straight bar on the sidecar. (as per the video)
Measurements are all for nothing if in your opinion the bike tracks well for normal use, depending on load and type of roads you usually travel, but what you have is a good starting point.
All that being said, I doubt the incident could have been avoided by having a different alignment set up. Your measurements are so close to spec that a single degree of lean out wouldn't change a thing. If it was me, I'd do a bit of trial and error on the back roads working out what will lift the sidecar and where the point of no return is. Parking areas, paddocks whatever. Apart from working out the limits of the machine, it's great fun.
Nothing wrong with over thinking, if it gets you a result. Sometimes it's just the way we are.... As you see, I'm an over thinker too.... 
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Post by keith on Oct 17, 2023 17:52:20 GMT 10
That’s how I like to park too 👍 |
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andyh
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Post by andyh on Oct 18, 2023 5:10:27 GMT 10
...All that being said, I doubt the incident could have been avoided by having a different alignment set up. No amount of setup would have compensated for popping the chair with a rock. You would think that a passenger would dampen the lift, but it doesn't seem too. More riding will help with how you react and the strength of your arms and more riding is always a good thing |
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haitch
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Post by haitch on Oct 18, 2023 7:54:40 GMT 10
G'day Haitch... I was on the ride too, and saw the aftermath of your temporary failure to proceed It certainly looked a little scary. I had some slightly scary moments myself, but these came down to two things. 1) Lack of talent, and 2) I've just replaced the dry, very lumpy steering head bearings...
When I did my training with Jon at the end of 2021. The last thing we did, after learning how to fly the chair, was to go back along the track to his house. It was a flat track, but the right hand wheel rut was below the left hand rut. Jon was in the sidecar, and I'd had sum total of about 90 minutes of riding a sidecar, ever. This was my first day. He said, "just follow that right hand rut" so I did, and when the right hand side dipped into the rut, my instinct immediately said "turn right". Jon said, "that happens to almost everyone at some point in their early days of sidecar riding, usually more than once." He was right, as it's happened to me a few times since.
Six months later, when I finally picked up my 2022 GU, I had to ride it back from Goulburn. Within 10 minutes of leaving the workshop where I picked it up, I was on a long off camber right hander heading for the opposite side of the road. Because I was so afraid of the chair lifting and tipping me out I didn't turn left as much as I needed to, but throttled off and let the bike fade right. It was a brand new bike and I hadn't ridden a sidecar since my 2 hours training and I had no weight in the side car either. It was lucky I was wearing my brown pants. My mate following in the car was ready to dial 000. However, just before I hit the gravel on the wrong side of the road, I consciously recalled Jon's sage advice on left handers, and rolled gently in to the throttle and pushed as much as I dare on the right grip, finally getting it back on the correct side of the road. After that, I was much, much more ginger in the left handers, but also spent a lot of time on the way home figuring out how much lift would occur and whether it kept lifting or eventually went back down again. Inevitably it always came back down, and my urge to turn right before it flipped has since dissipated. That being said, I will always go into a corner in either direction with a great deal of trepidation, and often come out wondering what all the fuss was about.
It's often said, by those more experienced than me, that the measurements for lean out and toe in are simply a starting point. If my original set up is any indication from the factory, Ivan's set up isn't always right for the intended owner. Mat in Uralla checked mine when I first took it up there when it was new. It pulled very hard to the left under acceleration, yet it was (just) in spec when he did his measurement. On some of the long right hand hills on the New England Hwy, it was all I could do to keep it from running off the road. He suggested on my way back to Sydney, to adjust the lean out by one turn on both struts and see what it was like. After two more turns (total of three in the end) I'd got it pretty right, for me anyway. Since then, I've never actually measured toe in or lean out. I just went by feel, and so far it's been great. That being said, I've just fitted Ikon shocks, and due to a back operation, can't ride for another month (I wish I'd bought them before the 4500km to TAS and the UAR ). So whether the new shocks will require a bit of fettling on the alignment I don't know. The tyres are wearing quite squarely, not wearing on one side or the other. So it should be close. 17,000 km and I'm just on to the fourth back tyre, second front tyre, original sidecar tyre.
Your question about pressure on the bars is correct, there is always a fair bit of pressure required on the bars in wheel ruts, and it's pretty unavoidable. Some people move their hands to the very edge of the bar, even off the end to get a bit more leverage. Some adjust them higher, like Glenn as he's pretty tall. If you didn't have a windscreen on the sidecar, you could put wider bars on. I know when I've been on those 200km days in the kind of country we were in
Depending on who you talk to about tracking and alignment everyone has their own preference. In my opinion, it will all depend on what you're doing. I'm solo with very little weight in the sidecar most of the time. So I've set it up to be quite neutral on the steering on a normal 80kph road. When I load up with a passenger, it will pull somewhat left, but not too badly. If I'm on a long trip, one turn out on the struts is easy enough to do on the side of the road.
I'm sure you've already seen all of David's Youtube videos on set up... but in the alignment video intro he talks about two things. 1) You'll never get a perfect chassis set up for all riding conditions and loads. 2) The Ural is made by people not robots, so there's always a slight variance in the build and the way they're finished, hence a difference in the alignments when they come from the factory.
From your measurements, it appears your toe in is within spec, but your lean out isn't quite enough. Providing your measurements are taken from the correct positions. On the rear rotor for the lean out and behind the side car wheel to between the hub and rim through to your straight bar on the rear wheel for the back measurement, and under the front wheel axle squarely across to the straight bar on the sidecar. (as per the video)
Measurements are all for nothing if in your opinion the bike tracks well for normal use, depending on load and type of roads you usually travel, but what you have is a good starting point.
All that being said, I doubt the incident could have been avoided by having a different alignment set up. Your measurements are so close to spec that a single degree of lean out wouldn't change a thing. If it was me, I'd do a bit of trial and error on the back roads working out what will lift the sidecar and where the point of no return is. Parking areas, paddocks whatever. Apart from working out the limits of the machine, it's great fun.
Nothing wrong with over thinking, if it gets you a result. Sometimes it's just the way we are.... As you see, I'm an over thinker too....
Hi miker..thanks for the great reply. I wish we had have met on the UAR. Just a couple of additional points. I think increasing lean out may have compounded the problem as that would lean us further into the cliff. On setup I used a magnetic inclinometer on the rear rotor with an alignment bar from front to rear holding the front wheel straight.Lean out was confirmed with and without rider. The by adding the sc passenger. I find by riding the crown in most roads the steering is fairly neutral..almost hands off until the camber changes and/or the road turns. We were getting quite comfortable until this. Now I am feeling a bit intimidated again. Another ride into the hills today. So we will see. Thanks again for your input. BTW Uralee has ridden "Ruby" as well, with no adverse comment. |
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Post by miker on Oct 18, 2023 14:04:42 GMT 10
We did meet Haitch, on Friday night at dinner, didn’t put the face to the name…. Not to worry.
As Andy said, more time in the saddle.
If it’s tracking the way you like it, that’s what counts regardless of the actual measurements. Unless you’re scrubbing tyres.
The learning curve is a very long one with these. I’ve only got 17,000km under my belt… a mate with a BMW and DMC sidecar has 60,000 under his belt after two up around Oz. He’s still very respectful of the surprises that get thrown up on a regular basis.
When other riders ask “can I have a go?” I simply reply, “no, nothing you’ve ever ridden/driven will prepare you for this, unless you’ve driven an MG with a left front wheel missing….” I do however offer to pass on my limited knowledge in a closed environment, but never on a public road.
Hope the ride in the hills was fun. I’m laid up for another month… all I’m allowed to do is look at it. 🤣
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haitch
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Post by haitch on Oct 18, 2023 16:54:15 GMT 10
Bugga sorry Mike. My marbles are getting lost. Just got back from our ride..Just under 200k. What was going to be a cruisey dirt outing. Started with a god awful switch back loose dirt climb. Only 2 scarey bits The first a loose vert uphill right hander had the front pushing over the edge and the intercom cracklin in my ears. Second was an equally scary downhill series of hairpins. Clutch in and riding the brakes down being careful not to lock up. Anyway, we're still here and just a couple of frights The rest of the ride was quite slow as the potholes were horrendous and impossible to see. But, we're still in the saddle. Got some video so will post after editing some language out 😁😁
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It certainly looked a little scary. I had some slightly scary moments myself, but these came down to two things. 1) Lack of talent, and 2) I've just replaced the dry, very lumpy steering head bearings... 
). So whether the new shocks will require a bit of fettling on the alignment I don't know. The tyres are wearing quite squarely, not wearing on one side or the other. So it should be close. 17,000 km and I'm just on to the fourth back tyre, second front tyre, original sidecar tyre. 
